2017 年 10 月 CNBC 专访
乔·科南早上好，贝基。
JOE KERNENGood morning, Becky.
贝基·奎克早上好，乔。今天早上我们请到了伯克希尔·哈撒韦的董事长兼首席执行官沃伦·巴菲特。沃伦，非常感谢你今天早上抽出时间。
BECKY QUICKGood morning, Joe. We are here this morning with Warren Buffett, the chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. And, Warren, we want to thank you very much for your time this morning.
沃伦·巴菲特谢谢你们邀请我。
WARREN BUFFETTThanks for having me.
贝基·奎克你知道，我们刚刚从拉斯维加斯的新闻中缓过神来。不幸的是，似乎——我们作为一个国家，对听到枪击事件变得越来越麻木——但这次事件在规模、范围和目前披露的细节上都不一样。你对此有什么看法吗？
BECKY QUICKYou know, we're just coming out of this story about Las Vegas. And-- while unfortunately it seems that-- we as a nation are becoming more and more inured to-- to hearing about shooting stories, this one is different in the scale, in the scope of it, in the stories that are coming out right now. Do you have any reaction to what you heard?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，你——你永远不会忘记或习惯这种事情。而且——我想说的是——我——我听说枪手在 90 秒内发射了 200 发子弹之类的。我认为拉斯维加斯地铁警察在到达现场方面做得非常出色。我的意思是——当有人以那种速度射击时——警方的快速反应可能拯救了数百条生命。但是——这个国家有 3.25 亿人。而且——其中一定比例的人，他们的大脑运转方式不正常。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, you-- you never forget or inure to this. And-- the one thing I would say is that I-- I heard that the shooter got off 200 rounds in 90 seconds or something like that. And I think the Las Vegas metro police did an incredible job in-- in getting there. I mean-- when somebody's shooting at that rate-- the police force may have saved maybe even hundreds of lives by reacting as fast as they did. But-- you've got 325 million people in this country. And-- and a certain percentage of 'em, their brains don't work like brains should.
贝基·奎克而且——而且你看到这种情况发生了。显然——我们的——我们的——我们的心与思绪——都与——拉斯维加斯的人民以及从各地赶到那里的人们同在。但我们也要谈论商业。尽管我们不应该对此变得麻木，但如果你看市场，很难看到太大的反应。市场几乎无视了任何潜在的坏消息，道琼斯指数昨天又创新高，市场已经连续八个季度上涨。这个市场对你来说合理吗？这里的估值合理吗？
BECKY QUICKAnd-- and you see a situation like this develop. Obviously-- our-- our-- our hearts and our thoughts are-- with-- the people of Las Vegas and the people who have traveled around to be there today. But we are talking about business, too. And as much as we should not become inured to this, if you look at the markets, it's hard to see much of a reaction. The markets have ignored just about any potential bad news badly with the Dow setting another record yesterday and with eight quarters in a row now of gains for the market. Is that-- a market that makes sense to you? Do valuations here make sense?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，估值合理——考虑到利率——现在的位置。我的意思是，归根结底，你——你衡量为一笔资产投钱时，要对比你将来能拿回什么。而——而首要的标尺是美国政府债券。而且——而且——当 10 年期国债收益率是 2.3% 时——我认为股票的表现会比它好得多。所以如果我在两者之间选择，我会选股票。另一方面，如果——如果 10 年期利率是 5% 或 6%，你对股票就会有一个完全不同的估值标准。而且——我们谈论这个已经有一段时间了。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, the valuations make sense-- with interest rates-- where they are. I mean, in-- in the end, you-- you measure laying out money for an asset in relation to what you're going to get back. And the-- and the number one yardstick is U.S. government. And-- and-- when you get 230 on the-- on the 10 year-- I think stocks will do considerably better than that. So if I have a choice of the two, I'm gonna take stocks at that point. On the other hand, if-- if interest rates were-- on the 10 year were five or six, you would have a whole different valuation standard for-- for stocks. And-- and we've talked about that, you know, for some time now.
贝基·奎克我正想说，多年来你一直在说这就像地心引力，会把市场拉下来，但这种情况并没有发生。
BECKY QUICKI was going to say, it's been years that you've been talking about how-- this is in relation to gravity, and pulling the market down, and how it's not happening here.
沃伦·巴菲特是的，利率就是地心引力。如果——如果我们知道从现在到世界末日利率都是零，你知道，你可以为任何其他资产付很多钱。你不会想把钱放在零收益上。我在 19——我是说，2009 年时本以为利率不会在八年后还这么低。但这一直是一个强大的因素。而且它持续得越久，人们就越开始以他们长期看到的利率水平来思考。所以——我确定的一点是——长期来看——从这个水平出发的股票将跑赢从这个水平出发的债券——你知道吗？如果我能做空 30 年期债券（收益率 3% 左右），同时做多标普 500 指数，并且持有 30 年不动，股票的表现将远远超过债券。问题在于：哪个变量会变化？每个人都预期利率会变，但他们已经预期了很久了。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah, interest rates are gravity. If-- if we knew interest rates were gonna be zero from now till judgment day, you know, you could pay a lotta money for any other asset. You would not want to put your money on a zero. And I would have thought back in nineteen-- I mean, 2009 that rates would not be this low-- eight years later. But it's been a powerful factor. And the longer it persists, the more people start thinking in terms of something close to the-- the rates they've seen for a long time. So-- the one thing I'm sure of is that-- over time-- stocks from this level will beat bonds from this level-- you know? If I could be short the 30-year bond at 3% or something, and long the S&P 500, and just have it put away for 30 years, stocks are gonna far outperform bonds. And the question is: Which variable is gonna change? And everybody expects interest rates to change, but they've been expecting it quite a while.
贝基·奎克那么这是否意味着——我的意思是，如果唯一的因素是利率，我们知道美联储正在考虑加息。它会缓慢而逐步地这么做。至少到目前为止他们是这么暗示的。你打赌这在未来几年会继续下去吗？我的意思是，从 2.3% 到 5% 是一段很长的路，当你每次只移动四分之一个百分点时——
BECKY QUICKSo does that mean-- I mean, if the one factor is interest rates, we know that the Fed is looking at raising rates. It's going to do so slowly and gradually over time. At least that's what they've been telegraphing to this point. Would you bet on that continuing for the next couple of years? I mean, 2.3% to 5% is a long way when you're moving—
沃伦·巴菲特那会是很长的路。
WARREN BUFFETTThat'd be a long away.
贝基·奎克——当你每次只移动四分之一个百分点的时候。
BECKY QUICK--when you're moving in quarter-point increments.
沃伦·巴菲特是的。是的，那会是很长的路。而且我——我会——我会猜——我不是在猜股市。我只是买入企业，就像我——但如果要我猜，如果——如果利率——如果 10 年期国债收益率升到 5%，我认为股票会便宜一些。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah. Yeah, that'd be a long way. And my-- I would-- I would guess-- I don't try and guess the stock market. I just buy businesses, how I-- but if I were to guess, if-- if interest rates-- if the 10 year moved up to 5%, I think stocks would be somewhat cheaper.
贝基·奎克如果——但你不是在赌——
BECKY QUICKIf-- but you're not betting—
沃伦·巴菲特但长期来看我——
WARREN BUFFETTBut over time I—
贝基·奎克你不是在赌这会在接下来的——
BECKY QUICKYou're not betting that that's going to happen in the next—
沃伦·巴菲特不，不。
WARREN BUFFETTNo, no.
贝基·奎克——几年内发生。
BECKY QUICK--couple of years.
沃伦·巴菲特长期来看我一直持有股票。我的意思是——范围一直很广。我在年报里写过。我的意思是——股票比债券有吸引力得多，而且已经持续了很长时间。而且——这在一定程度上是美联储有意为之。我的意思是，他们——他们——他们希望资产升值。而——做到这一点的方法就是降低高利率这个地心引力。
WARREN BUFFETTOver time I've owned stocks. I mean-- it's been so wide. I've written about it in the annual reports. I mean-- stocks have been so much more attractive than bonds for a long time now. And-- and-- that's partly intentional on the part of the Fed. I mean, they-- they-- they want assets to increase in value. And-- and the way to do it was to reduce that gravity force of higher interest rates.
贝基·奎克美联储——听起来更鹰派了一些。甚至珍妮特·耶伦也听起来更鹰派了一些。这让你担心吗？还是人们变得自满，认为利率会在很长一段时间内保持低位？
BECKY QUICKThe-- the Fed has been sounding a little more hawkish. Even Janet Yellen has been sounding a little more hawkish. Does that concern you? Or are people getting complacent thinking rates are going to be low for an extended period of time here?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我认为他们预期利率会上升。但问题是上升多少。我的意思是，如果——如果三年后利率上升 100 个基点，那么股票——股票在这个价格上看起来仍然便宜。如果是 300 或 400 个基点，它们就不会看起来便宜了。而且——珍妮特·耶伦也不知道她三年后会做什么。我的意思是，她——她的工作比这个——这个影响股票市场的简单因素要复杂得多。这确实很有趣，因为美联储说过他们希望看到 2% 的通货膨胀。我的意思是，这是相当近期的事。那——保罗·沃尔克如果在 80 年代听到这个，他肯定睡不着觉。但是，如果——如果美国政府以 2.3% 的利率向你借 10 年的钱，而他们自己的工具——美联储——却说，“我们确实希望货币每年贬值 2%”，他们在实际购买力方面并没有向你承诺什么回报。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I think they expect 'em to increase. But the question is how much. I mean, if-- if three years from now interest rates are 100 basis points higher, then the stocks-- stocks will still look cheap at these prices. If they're 300 or 400 basis points, they won't look cheap. And-- and Janet Yellen doesn't know what she would do three years from now. I mean, she-- she's got-- she's got more of a job than that s-- that s-- simple factor of the stock market. It's really interesting because the Fed has said that they'd like to see 2% inflation. I mean, that's fairly recent. That-- that-- Paul Volcker would not have slept ig he ever heard that in the '80s. But if the-- if the U.S. government is borrowing at 10 years from you at 2.3% and-- and their own instrument, the Fed, is saying, "We would really like money to become worth 2% a year less," they're not promising you very much in terms of real terms for saving.
贝基·奎克对。所以——珍妮特·耶伦，你说她有一份大工作。问题是：她还能保住那份工作吗？还是特朗普总统会任命别人？目前看起来两个主要人物要么是凯文·沃什，要么是杰罗姆·鲍威尔。作为一个投资者，你是否需要花时间思考谁在管理美联储，以思考如果利率是最重要的因素，股价会怎么走？
BECKY QUICKRight. So-- Janet Yellen, you said she's got a big job. The question is: Does she keep that job? Or does President Trump appoint someone else? And it seems like two of the leading figures right now are either Kevin Warsh or Jerome Powell. As an investor do you have to spend some time thinking about who is running the Fed to think about what stock prices are going to do if interest rates are the most important factor?
沃伦·巴菲特是的，我——我——我不会花时间想这个。但想了对我也没有任何好处。我——我最终也不会知道答案。而且大部分时间美联储并没有那么重要。偶尔它是唯一——它是唯一的玩家——它可以是唯一的玩家。2008 年 9 月，只有一个人能像警长一样走到街上说，你知道，“这事不能再继续了。我们会做任何必要的事，”并且有权力去做。我的意思是，在恐慌期间，美联储具有巨大的重要性。而且——人们往往会在中间时段——我们根本不理会它时——抓住它的每一句话不放。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah, I-- I-- I don't spend time thinking about it. But it wouldn't do me any good to think about it. I-- I wouldn't know the answer in the end. And most of the time the Fed is not that important. Occasionally it's everyth-- it's the only game in town— It can be the only game in town. There was only one person that in September of 2008-- could walk out like the sheriff into the street and say, you know, that-- that-- that, "This isn't going any further. We're going to do whatever is necessary," and have the power to do it. I mean, the Fed has got-- is of enormous importance-- during a panic. And it-- people tend to hang on their every word in between-- we don't pay any attention to it.
贝基·奎克但你说过利率是最重要的因素。所以任何试图玩市场、弄清楚事情的人，也许不像你那样是长期投资者——
BECKY QUICKBut you have said that interest rates are the most important factor. So anybody's who trying to play the market and figure things out, maybe not as long of a term investor as you're going to be with--
沃伦·巴菲特嗯——
WARREN BUFFETTWell--
贝基·奎克——应该考虑这个。
BECKY QUICK--these things, should be thinking about this.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，但如果他们真的认为自己能搞清楚，那他们还不如去玩债券市场。我的意思是，他们不一定非得跳到股票市场来。所以——但我记不起我们做过任何基于美联储的决策，除了我感觉到伯南克、保尔森和盖特纳——但我觉得美联储在 2008 年秋天会做——正确的事。我们有一个不可思议的经济机器，当时它进了医院。而美联储能把它救出来。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, but if they really think they can figure it out, they might as well play the bond market. I mean, they don't really have to get over to the stock market. So-- but I can't remember a decision we've ever made based on the Fed except for the fact that I felt that Bernanke, Paulson, and Geithner-- but I-- I felt the Fed would do the-- the right thing in the fall of 2008. We had an incredible economic machine that was in the hospital. And the Fed could bring it out.
贝基·奎克我——我——我意识到利率不是你经常考虑的事情，除了在一个非常宏观的层面上。你也说过税收不是你考虑的事情，除了在一个非常宏观的层面上。这次的情况也是这样吗？
BECKY QUICKI-- I-- I realize that interest rates are not something that you often think about other than on a very broad scale. You've also said that taxes aren't something that you think about other than on a very broad scale. Is that the case this time around?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我现在确实经常考虑这事，因为——我们可能会、也可能不会——税法有变化。而且——我们有很多股票，浮盈巨大。我们也有少数股票，有浮亏。现在已经是 10 月了，如果有什么变动导致 1 月 1 日起税率大幅变化，那我——假设他们降低资本利得税率或公司税率的话——我现在卖掉亏损的股票、把浮盈推迟到明年再实现，才划算。我——我觉得市场上很多人都在这么做。因为大家预期，如果他们减税——如果他们通过——一项税法的话，它会——它会降低税率。公司税率肯定降。而且——而且如果等上几个月可能只要交 25% 的税，现在却去实现浮盈交 35%，那就有点蠢了。所以这事其实很少进入我们的决策。总的来说，我们宁愿卖有亏损的股票，也不要卖有盈利的。但——但现在——我们正坐等观望，因为——三个月内——其实不到三个月，我们就会知道答案——到底今年是该实现亏损还是不该实现盈利。而且——我们两边都有行动方案。我——我觉得市场——
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I think about them plenty right now because-- we may or may not have-- a change in the tax code. And-- we have lots of stocks with lots of gains. And we have a few stocks with-- with losses. And here we are in October, and if something happens that changes the tax rate significantly on January 1st, it would pay me-- assuming that they would reduce rates on capital gains or corporate rates, it would pay me to sell the losses now and defer the gains until next year. And I-- I think there's a lot of that going on. Because I think there's an expectation that if they reduce-- that if they have-- a tax act it will be-- it w-- they will cut the rates. Certainly corporate rates. And-- and it'd be kinda foolish to have a gain now and pay 35% tax on it if by waiting a few months you were likely to pay 25%. So it actually very seldom enters into our thinking. On balance we'd rather sell things with losses than gains. But-- but right now-- we're sitting and watching because-- within three months-- actually less than that we'll know the answer on this, as to whether this was the year to take losses and not gains. And-- we've got actions on both sides that we would take. I-- I think the market-
贝基·奎克所以你——你实际上是在暂停你在伯克希尔的操作。这不只是你的个人账户。在伯克希尔，你确实在推迟——潜在亏损——
BECKY QUICKSo you're -- you're actually stopping what you're doing as-- as-- at Berkshire. This is not just your personal account. At Berkshire you are actually holding off-- potential losses—
沃伦·巴菲特潜在卖出。
WARREN BUFFETTPotential sales.
贝基·奎克潜在卖出或潜在——
BECKY QUICKPotential sales or potential—
沃伦·巴菲特而且——而且认识到——
WARREN BUFFETTAnd-- and realizing--
贝基·奎克——买入为——
BECKY QUICK--purchases as--
沃伦·巴菲特——亏损。
WARREN BUFFETT--losses.
贝基·奎克而且认识到亏损。所以你实际上改变了你的行为，这一点我以前从没听你说过——
BECKY QUICKAnd realizing losses. So that's an actual change in your behavior that I've never heard you say—
沃伦·巴菲特这种情况并不经常发生——你在 10 月份，而一项重大税法有可能真的通过。谁知道概率是 20% 还是 50%？但有一件事我是知道的。一两个月内我就会知道答案。我的意思是，留给立法的时间不多了。而且——而且——如果我现在实现 10 亿美元的收益并为此缴纳 3.5 亿美元的税，而若再等几个月只需缴纳 2.5 亿美元，我会觉得自己有点蠢。如果足够多的人都在这么做，那可能意味着市场正受到相当显著的影响。
WARREN BUFFETTIt doesn't happen very often that there's-- that you're in the month of October with a major tax act being-- a real possibility. Who knows whether it's a 20% chance, 50% chance? But one thing I know about it. I'll know the answer within a month or two. I mean, there-- there are not that many days left to legislate. And-- and-- and I would feel kind of silly if I realized a billion dollars worth of gains to pay 350 million of tax on it if just waited a few months and would have paid 250. Now, if enough people are doing that, that may mean that the market's being affected fairly substantially.
贝基·奎克对。那——那——这会对整个市场产生什么更广泛的影响？因为连你都在这么做，你肯定能想象很多人也在这么做。
BECKY QUICKRight. That's what the-- the-- what-- what-- what is the broader play in the market as a result? 'Cause if you're doing it, you've gotta imagine lots of people are doing it.
沃伦·巴菲特我觉得是这样。我觉得是这样。
WARREN BUFFETTI think that's true. I think that's true.
贝基·奎克你谈的是好几十亿美元的潜在卖出。
BECKY QUICKYou're talking about billions of dollars of potential sales.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，这里说的可能有好几千亿美元。我的意思是——而且——。你可能指的是这样一些人——这会倾向于压低那些表现不佳的股票，因为人们现在会实现亏损。同时，这也会倾向于推迟实现收益，并减少那些升值幅度非常大的股票当前的卖出方。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, maybe hundreds of billions here. I mean-- I mean-- and--. And you may be talking about people that-- it would-- it would tend to depress stocks that have behaved badly because people would be taking the losses now. And it would tend to defer gains and reduce the sellers currently that would be in stocks with very large appreciation.
贝基·奎克那怎么——
BECKY QUICKSo how—
沃伦·巴菲特我可以告诉你，这——在伯克希尔是一个实际的影响因素。在我 87 年的人生里，它极其、极其、极其罕见地成为过一个因素。
WARREN BUFFETTI can tell you it's-- it's-- it's an actual factor at Berkshire. And it's very, very, very seldom in my 87 years that it has ever been a factor.
贝基·奎克那——那我们可能会看到什么？但首先，你认为税改计划通过的概率有多大？你——
BECKY QUICKSo what-- what might we see if-- but, first of all, what do you think the odds of a tax plan getting passed are? You--
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我——我个人认为概率可能比大多数人想得要高。因为我觉得——医保法案已经那样了，而且——总体来看——也没有基建法案，如果算三大事项的话，这是今年唯一剩下的。而且我——我——我认为共和党控制着两院和总统职位，他们不会想在第一年就交白卷——在最高优先事项上。而且我认为他们能搞定。我的意思是，这——这不是税制改革法案，这是个减税法案。而且——我——我觉得任何一个政客——如果连减税都通不过——可能入错行了。如果你连减税都通不过——我的意思是，这和医保法案不同。但我认为会有很多妥协。而且——我认为它可能——在某种程度上是跨党派的。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I-- I personally think they're higher probably than most people think. Because I think that-- that having had the health care bill go the way it has and-- and just generally-- and no infrastructure, if-- if you take maybe the three big items, this is the only one left to do this year. And I-- I-- I would think the Republicans controlling both houses and the presidency, they would not want to have a shutout-- in their first year. And of top priorities. And I think they can get it done. I mean, I-- it's not a tax reform act. It's a tax cut act. And-- and I-- I think that any politician that-- that can't pass a tax cut-- probably is in the wrong line of business. If you can't pass-- I mean, it's a different thing with a health care act. But I think there could be a lotta compromise. And-- I think it could be-- bipartisan to a degree.
贝基·奎克好。我知道乔有问题要问。但在我们开始之前，沃伦，我知道我们这边在准备。在乔提问之前，我们先让那个恢复好。不过，乔——先确认一下这个能正常工作。可以吗？
BECKY QUICKOkay. I know Joe has a question. But before we get to it, Warren, I know we've got. Let's get that back in before Joe asks his question. But, Joe-- m-- make sure that this is working before. Is that okay?
沃伦·巴菲特我觉得行。
WARREN BUFFETTI think so.
贝基·奎克好。乔，问吧。试试看。
BECKY QUICKOkay. Joe, go ahead. Try that out.
沃伦·巴菲特那得看乔问什么，才能决定行不行。
WARREN BUFFETTDepends what Joe asks whether it's okay.
乔·科南对，你可以——如果你不喜欢这个问题，你可以说，“嗯，我不喜欢。”嘿，沃伦。
JOE KERNENYeah, you can f-- if you don't like the question, you can say, "Well-I don't." Hey Warren.
沃伦·巴菲特我已经在练了。
WARREN BUFFETTI'm already practicing.
乔·科南对，没错。你知道我嫉妒——羡慕。但——但我觉得——有时候我看到你做一些事——我的意思是，我——如果我能买下 Flying J，我根本不在乎能不能赚钱。我就想拥有 Flying J。我想拥有——你有没有因为能做就去做的事？比如——我是说，这笔交易你会赚钱吗？或者我喜欢——你看，比如——你买了冰雪皇后。我觉得你不是为了赚钱。你喜欢冰雪皇后。那喜诗糖果呢？你喜欢喜诗——我想拥有——为什么是 Flying J？我太喜欢那些地方了。有淋浴间。有餐厅。我意思是，你出门在外，就像个牛仔——和卡车司机们一起之类的。你就是因为能做就去做了，对吧？
JOE KERNENYeah, exactly. You know I'm jealous-- envious. But-- but I see-- sometimes I see you do things where-- I mean, I would-- if I could buy Flying J, I wouldn't care if I ever made any money. I would just like to own Flying J. I'd like to own-- do you ever do things just 'cause you can, just-- I mean, are you gonna make money on this? Or I like-- see, like, you-- with Dairy Queen. You buy Dairy Queen. I don't think you're trying to make money there. You like Dairy Queen. What about See's Candies? You like See's Can-- and I want to own-- why Flying J? I love those places. There's showers. There's restaurants. There-- I mean, you're out on the road. You're like a cowboy and-- and-- with the truckers and everything. You do things just 'cause you can I think, right?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯——乔，如果你真这么想，那就带钱来。我——我会给你一张所有门店的地图。你就是我们要找的那种人。
WARREN BUFFETTWell-- Joe, if you feel that way, I mean, bring money. I'll-- I'll send you a map of all the locations. And you're our kinda guy.
乔·科南我刚才在看——那些不是……吗？你——你——你在那儿停过，对吧？贝基，你进过 Flying J 吗？我是说——很多时候——
JOE KERNENI was just look-- Aren't those k-- you-- do you-- you've stopped there, right? Becky, have you been in a Flying J? I mean-- a lot of times--
贝基·奎克去过。我去过很多次。
BECKY QUICKI have. I've been in plenty of them.
乔·科南它就像个绿洲。
JOE KERNENit's like an oasis.
贝基·奎克在 295 号公路新泽西段转 7 号出口的立交桥那儿就有一个。就在那儿。
BECKY QUICKThere's-- there's one right on the interchange where you get off 295 in New Jersey and get on the exit seven. And there's one right there.
乔·科南它——
JOE KERNENIt's--
贝基·奎克但我刚才在和 Flying J 的 CEO，Pilot Flying J 的 CEO 聊天，他碰巧也在场，下一节会来做客。——
BECKY QUICKBut I was just talking to the Flying J CEO, the Pilot Flying J CEO, who happens to be here and will be our guest in the next block.--
乔·科南我知道。我只是——他刚买了——
JOE KERNENI know. I just-- he just buys--
贝基·奎克——关于——
BECKY QUICK--about--
乔·科南——很酷的东西。
JOE KERNEN--cool things.
贝基·奎克——关于——印第安纳州来回。对。
BECKY QUICK--about----Indiana and back. Right.
乔·科南我不——所以我的问题是：它必须得是个好——好投资吗，沃伦？还是说你只是因为喜欢就随便买什么？
JOE KERNENI don't-- so my question is: Does it have to be a good-- a good investment, Warren? Or you just buy whatever the hell you want because you like it?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯——这个——你知道，这两者并不互斥。我——我确实喜欢——我们几乎所有公司的产品。我想如果哪天我们买了家殡仪馆之类的，我可能不会那么热衷。但——但总的来说，我——我喜欢我们的产品。所以——但——我——我还喜欢有好的经济效益与之相伴。
WARREN BUFFETTWell-- the thing-- you know, they're not mutually exclusive. I-- I do like the I do like the products-- of-- of virtually all our companies. I suppose if we ever bought a funeral parlor or something I wouldn't be as enthused. But the-- but generally speaking, I-- I like our products. So-- but-- I-- I kinda like good economics to go along with 'em, too
乔·科南不，你确实喜欢。我——我是说，显然你——你有多精明——比方说——我是说，GEICO 有多赚钱？我的意思是，你——你确实有一双能发现极其赚钱的东西的眼睛。但有时候我只是希望自己有很多钱。我就会说，“你知道吗？我真的很喜欢那个地方。”然后你就——你知道，我记得那个叫维克多·基亚姆的家伙？“我太喜欢它了，所以买了下来”——他买了剃须刀，因为他喜欢那种刮胡子的感觉。也许——你知道，也许当你到了某个阶段，你就这么干了，对吧？
JOE KERNENNo, you do. I-- I mean, obviously you've been-- how smart are you-- in terms of, like-- I mean, how profitable is, like, GEICO? I mean, you do-- you-- you got an eye for things that are really, really profitable. But there are times where I just wish I had a lotta money. I-- I'd just say, "You know what? I really like that place." And you just-- you know, I l-- remember that guy Victor Kiam? "I liked it so much I bought" he-- he bought the razors 'cause he liked the way they shaved. Maybe-- you know, maybe when you get to a certain point you just do that, you know?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，如果你——如果你这么做，你得用自己的钱，而不是伯克希尔的。但我——我——我不会反驳这一点。我的意思是，如果——如果——如果你有很多钱，而且有样东西你喜欢，但它不赚钱，你就买下来。但你不能用伯克希尔的钱买。你得用自己的钱买。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, if you do-- if you do it, you do it with your own money and not Berkshire's. But I-- I-- I wouldn't argue against that. I mean, if-- if-- if you have a lotta money, and there's something you like, and it isn't profitable, you buy it. But you don't buy it with Berkshire's money. You buy it with your own money.
乔·科南你——你——你——伯克希尔大部分本来不就是你的吗，巴菲特？你在说什么呢？伯克希尔你占多少？
JOE KERNENYou-- you-- you-- most of Berkshire you own anyway, Buffett. What are you talking about? How much of Berkshire is yours?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯——嗯——每一股最终都会捐出去。而且——而且——
WARREN BUFFETTWell-- well-- every single share is gonna be given away. And-- and--
乔·科南我知道。不，我知道。我知道，但——但这很好玩。你——你——你知道，你可以用它们做很酷的事。
JOE KERNENI know. No, I know. I know, but-- but it's fun. You're-- you're-- you know, you get to do cool things with them.
沃伦·巴菲特很好玩。确实好玩。
WARREN BUFFETTIt's fun. It's fun.
乔·科南确实如此。我就是这个意思。
JOE KERNENIt is. That was my point.
沃伦·巴菲特绝对。我是说——我是说，最精彩的部分就是砖头，乔。我给你寄了一块砖头。
WARREN BUFFETTAbsolutely. I mean-- I mean, the high point are bricks, Joe. I sent you a brick.
乔·科南我知道你寄了。我知道你寄了。
JOE KERNENI know you did. I know you did.
沃伦·巴菲特我——我从没想公开说，但你确实没有对那块砖表现出应有的欣赏。
WARREN BUFFETTI-- I've never wanted to say this publicly, but you really did not show the proper appreciation for that brick.
乔·科南不，我知道。谢谢你。它并不是——你知道，你拥有 NetJets。而且，我是说——这——这——如果你送我几个小时的 NetJets 飞行时间，会真的让你破产吗？会不会——你知道，你却送了我一块砖头。
JOE KERNENNo, I know. Thank you. It was not-- you know, you own NetJets. And, I mean, the-- like, would it k-- like, would it really break the bank if you send me a few hours on a NetJet plane? Would it-- you know, you sent me a brick instead.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，那块砖头我没得到任何回应。也许我该试试 NetJets。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I didn't get any response from the brick. So maybe I'll try a NetJets.
乔·科南好。行。行。
JOE KERNENOkay. All right. All right.
贝基·奎克谢谢你，乔。
BECKY QUICKThank you, Joe.
乔·科南我能——如果你送——
JOE KERNENCan I get-- if you send--
沃伦·巴菲特我——我知道——我可以——我看不到你的脸，但我——我——
WARREN BUFFETTI-- I know-- I could-- I can't see your face, but I-- I--
乔·科南我觉得你确实送过我一个。
JOE KERNENI think you did send me one.
沃伦·巴菲特——我能想象你的反应——那上面只有我的名字，但已经什么用都没了。就像那种，你知道，像塔可钟的卡一样，额度全用光了。总之，抱歉。谢谢你，贝基。我（笑）确实有冰雪皇后的卡。
WARREN BUFFETT--I can imagine you responding-- It just had my name, but it was not good for anything. It was, like-- one of those-- you know, like a Taco Bell card that's been all used up. Anyway, sorry. Thanks, Becky. I (LAUGH) do have Dairy Queen cards.
乔·科南没错。
JOE KERNENYes.
贝基·奎克好，我们马上回来。这里先短暂休息一下。回来之后，我们将连线到 Pilot Flying J 的首席执行官，详细了解伯克希尔·哈撒韦刚刚公布的那笔交易——今天购入这家公司少数股权。吉米·哈斯拉姆是首席执行官，他马上就来。《Squawk Box》很快回来。——0——各位早上好，欢迎收看《Squawk Box》。我们今天早上在内布拉斯加州奥马哈进行直播，有两位特别嘉宾。我们已经介绍过伯克希尔·哈撒韦董事长兼首席执行官沃伦·巴菲特。现在加入我们的是吉米·哈斯拉姆，他是 Pilot Flying J 的首席执行官。就在今天早上，过去 15 到 20 分钟内，公布了一项交易：伯克希尔·哈撒韦将购入 Pilot Flying J 39.6% 的股权。吉米，非常感谢你加入我们。
BECKY QUICKAll right. We are going to be back in just a moment. We're gonna take a very quick break here. When we come back, we will be joined by the CEO of Pilot Flying J to hear more about this deal that's just been announced from Berkshire Hathaway taking-- a minority stake in that company today. Jimmy Haslam's the CEO. And he'll be with us in just a moment. Squawk Box will be right back. --0- Good morning everybody and welcome to Squawk Box. We are live in Omaha, Nebraska this morning with two special guests. We already introduced you to Warren Buffett, who's the chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. But joining us right now is Jimmy Haslam. He is the CEO of Pilot Flying J. And just this morning in the last 15, 20 minutes there was a deal that was announced that Berkshire Hathaway is buying a 39.6% s-- stake in Pilot Flying J. Jimmy, thank you very much for joining us.
吉米·哈斯拉姆谢谢你邀请我们，贝基。
JIMMY HASLAMThanks for having us on, Becky.
贝基·奎克那这笔交易怎么达成的？发生了什么？说说看。你们俩怎么认识的？
BECKY QUICKSo how-- how did this deal come together? What-- what-- what happened? Explain. How-- how did you two meet?
吉米·哈斯拉姆你想去吗？
JIMMY HASLAMDo you wanna go?
沃伦·巴菲特不。不，你说吧。
WARREN BUFFETTNo. No, you do it.
吉米·哈斯拉姆我们有一位共同的朋友，拜伦·特罗特——沃伦认识他的时间其实比我们更久。拜伦的公司 BDT 持有我们公司 5% 的股份。他在五月份介绍我们认识。过去几个月里，我们逐步搭建起了一笔我们认为对双方公司都很有意义的交易。
JIMMY HASLAMWe have a mutual friend, Byron Trott, who-- Warren has actually known-- known longer than we have. And Byron's company, BDT, owns 5% of our company. And he introduced the two of us back in May. And over the last several months we've built-- we were able to put together a deal that we think makes a lot of sense for both companies.
贝基·奎克我们详细谈谈那笔交易。一笔 39.6% 的股份，然后到 2023 年会升至 80% 的股份。为什么——为什么要采用这种结构？
BECKY QUICKLet's talk through that deal. A 39.6% stake that will then go to an 80% stake in the year 2023. Why-- why that structure?
沃伦·巴菲特对，我觉得是 38.6。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah, I think it's 38.6.
吉米·哈斯拉姆对，38.6——
JIMMY HASLAMYeah, 38.6--
贝基·奎克38%——
BECKY QUICK38 p--
沃伦·巴菲特但我很乐意改成 39。
WARREN BUFFETTBut I'd be glad to make it 39.
吉米·哈斯拉姆——当时为了 39 还使劲谈判来着。
JIMMY HASLAM--negotiated hard for 39, too.
贝基·奎克那——为什么要设置这种结构？沃伦，你现在可不是缺现金的情况。
BECKY QUICKSo w-- why set up that structure? I mean, Warren, this is not a situation where you're short of cash.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我们——我们设过很多不同的结构，主要看管理方想要什么。你知道，1983 年跟巴普金斯家族合作时，我们就是这么做的，一模一样的结构。考虑到他们的家族情况、合伙关系等等，这种做法很合理。我们这次也是两步走的安排。我们之前也做过其他两步走的安排。跟普利兹克家族在马蒙集团，我们就是三步走的安排。总之，我们会尽量配合卖家的意愿。你知道，涉及家族什么的，都可以有不一样的安排。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, we-- we've set up a lot of different structures that-- that-- what the managing party would like to have. And-- you know, with the Bumpkins we did it in 1983. It's the same structure. So their situation in terms of their family, and their partnership, and everything made this logical. And-- and we have this two-step arrangement. We've had other two-step arrangements. At Marmon with the Pritzker family we had a three-step arrangement. So we try to fit what the seller would like. And, you know, families and everything you can-- you can have different arrangements.
贝基·奎克吉米，这家公司是家族经营，快 60 年了。按规模，它在福布斯美国非上市公司榜单上排第 15 位。全美 44 个州有 750 个零售点。有些指标相当惊人。光是为了给所有站点保证供油，就建了全国第四大的油罐车队。说说这家公司吧，你是怎么把它做起来的，又为什么决定改变？
BECKY QUICKJimmy, this is a situation where this is a family-run company for almost 60 years. We're talking about the number 15 on Forbes' list of private companies in terms of size. 750 retail locations in 44 states. Some of the metrics are pretty amazing. Fourth largest tanker fleet in the nation just by what you're sending around to make sure you have enough fuel at all those stops. Talk about the company, how you built it, and why make the change.
吉米·哈斯拉姆它——它跟沃伦收购的很多公司一样，是家族所有、家族经营的。1958 年，我父亲靠一个加油站起家。这些年来，我们逐步转型，从加油站、便利店，做到卡车休息站。现在，我们是一家大型燃油分销商，卖汽油和柴油。我们在美国公路沿线卖的柴油比谁都多。它也是一家大型物流公司，每 22 秒，我们就在美国或加拿大的某个自有站点卸下一车燃油。同时，它还是家大型食品公司。今年我们的食品销售额将超过 10 亿美元，整体零售额将超过 20 亿美元。
JIMMY HASLAMIt's-- it's-- like a lotta companies Warren has bought, it's a family-owned, family-run company. Started by my dad in 1958 with one gas station. We've changed over the years to gas stations, C stores, truck stops. And we're now a huge distributor of fuel. Gasoline and diesel fuel. We sell more diesel fuel over the road than anybody in the United States. And it's big logistics company. Every 22 seconds we drop a load of petroleum somewhere in the United States or Canada at one of our stops. Also a big food company. We'll sell over a m-- mill-- a billion dollars in food and over b-- $2 billion retail this year.
贝基·奎克哇。
BECKY QUICKWow.
吉米·哈斯拉姆我们业务遍及美国 44 个州，还有加拿大。
JIMMY HASLAMWe're in 44 states and-- U.S. and Canada.
贝基·奎克那你通过这些指标，对美国经济在任何时间点的状况都该了如指掌吧。现在情况怎么样？
BECKY QUICKWell, you must have a pretty-- good idea of what's happening in the U.S. economy at eve-- any given point given some of those metrics. How-- how are things?
吉米·哈斯拉姆是啊，沃伦和我刚才还在聊。我看我们会说，相当不错。真挺不错的。尤其强劲的是佛罗里达，还有加利福尼亚，当然还有得克萨斯——石油繁荣回归，加上水力压裂法，势头非常猛。肯定比几年前好多了。
JIMMY HASLAMYeah, Warren and I were talking earlier. I think we'd say it's pretty good. It's pretty good. Particularly strong in-- Florida. Particularly strong in California and of course Texas with the return of the oil boom and fracking is really strong. So it's certainly better than it was several years ago.
贝基·奎克你刚提到的州里，就有两个刚被飓风狠狠蹂躏过。你的数据为此闪了一下吗？是在反弹吗？还是说，你们怎么应对的？
BECKY QUICKTwo of the states that you just mentioned are states that have just been hit pretty hard by the hurricanes that came through. Do you see-- a blip on the screen for that? Is it something that's picking up? Or how-- how do you work that?
吉米·哈斯拉姆飓风对受灾的人显然极其不幸。但从商业角度看，它的确会带来更多生意。有房子需要重建，有新车要卖，诸如此类。所以我们在佛罗里达和得克萨斯的业务都大幅增长。
JIMMY HASLAMHurricanes are obviously very unfortunate for the people involved. From a business standpoint it does create-- more business. There-- there are homes that need to be-- be rebuilt. There's new cars being sold, et cetera. So our business is up substantially in both Florida and in Texas.
现场股东哇。为什么伯克希尔·哈撒韦看起来很适合你们？
QUESTIONWow. Why-- why does Berkshire seem like a good fit for you?
吉米·哈斯拉姆因为它是长期投资者。沃伦，我没说错吧？你收购的那些公司——不是指买股票——我记得你说，你好像一家的都没卖过。对吧？
JIMMY HASLAMLong-term investor. I think I'm right, Warren. Of the companies you bought, not equities, I don't think you've ever sold one I think you told us. Is that right?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我觉得——是没说错。我们——
WARREN BUFFETTYeah, I think that's-- that's right. We--
吉米·哈斯拉姆所以，是长期投资者。不插手。他确实希望我们自己经营公司，希望我们保持自己的文化。当然，如果我们有机会大幅拓展业务，他手里也有充足的资本。所以，我们认为这是一桩非常说得通的联姻。
JIMMY HASLAMSo long-term investor. Hands off. He truly wants us to run the company— wants us to maintain the culture. And, of course, if there is an opportunity for us to grow the company substantially, he's got plenty of capital. So just— a marriage that we thought made a lot of sense.
沃伦·巴菲特吉米总部在诺克斯维尔。我们 14 年前在诺克斯维尔也收购过另一家公司——克莱顿住宅。他们的员工人数从 5,000 增长到了 16,000。但他们只见过我一面。没准多见我一次，业绩反倒会更好呢。但吉米清楚，两家也互相认识。他们有机会去验证，看我们到底会管多少日常运营。说真的，我既不知道怎么盖房子、造卡车，也不会经营旅行中心——我们得靠管理层。
WARREN BUFFETTJimmy's based in Knoxville. And we bought another company in Knoxville 14 years ago, Clayton Homes. Their employment has gone from 5,000 to 16,000. And they've seen me exactly once. They might have done better if they had-- had one time. But-- but-- Jimmy knows-- and the families know each other. And-- and-- so they've had a chance to check and see exactly how much we do interfere with operations. And truth is I wouldn't know how to build or manufacture a home or a truck or a travel center, or-- we depend on management.
贝基·奎克没错。吉米，你的增长确实相当惊人。我记得过去两年，你们店铺数量增加了 10%，对吗？
BECKY QUICKRight. Jimmy, you have seen some pretty phenomenal growth. I think you increased the number of stores you have in the last two years by 10%. Is that correct?
吉米·哈斯拉姆对，我们——我们一直是一家成长型公司，我从一开始就这么说。现在我们已经有相当大的市场份额了。但我们一直在寻找机会，贝基，无论是通过内生增长，还是收购单个站点。去年我们和马拉松石油（Marathon Petroleum）合作，在东南地区拿下了 41 个站点。再往前几年，我们还新增了 71 个站点。我们仍然认为还有机会继续把公司做大。
JIMMY HASLAMYeah, we-- we've been a growth company like I said from the get-go. And we have a pretty large market position now. But we're always looking for opportunities, Becky, to grow either organically, to grow-- to buy a single stop. Or last year we partnered with Marathon Petroleum on 41 stops in the Southeast. Over the last couple of years we've added 71 stops. We still think there's an opportunity to continue to grow the company.
贝基·奎克那你们目前还没进入、但很希望进入的地区是哪里？
BECKY QUICKWhere-- where-- where are you not right now that you'd like to be?
吉米·哈斯拉姆我们其实已经覆盖 44 个州了。我们还没进入阿拉斯加、夏威夷，以及东北部一些面积较小、或者从卡车休息站的角度来看难以进入的州。所以我认为，增长确实会继续覆盖全国各个区域。得州显然机会很大，得州自身有自然增长，再加上石油产业，我确实认为这里空间相当可观。
JIMMY HASLAMWe're really-- we're in 44 states. We're not in Alaska, and Hawaii, and some of the Northeastern states that are small or tough to get in from a truck stop standpoint. So I think the growth will continue really in all segments-- of the country. Texas obviously with the natural growth Texas has coupled with the oil industry presents I think great opportunities.
贝基·奎克太好了。吉米，非常谢谢你今天能来参加我们的节目。希望以后还能多见到你。我们真——
BECKY QUICKGreat. Jimmy, we want to thank you so much for joining us today. And-- hope to see more of you in the future. We really—
吉米·哈斯拉姆太好了。谢谢，贝基。很感谢——
JIMMY HASLAMGreat. Thanks, Becky. Appreciate—
贝基·奎克——很感谢你抽出时间。
BECKY QUICK--appreciate your time.
吉米·哈斯拉姆——感谢你邀请我们上节目。
JIMMY HASLAMyou having us on.
贝基·奎克我们非常感谢。乔、梅利莎，我把画面切回演播室交给你们。我们得走了，不过——跟我说说，吉米去过多少家？我就是好奇，750 家里他去了多少家。我很想去看看——那些店真的很酷。总之——我们后面还会有贝基带来的更多内容——吉米，你有答案了吗？
BECKY QUICKWe appreciate it. Joe and Melissa, I'll send it back to you in the studio. Becky. We gotta go, but-- send me-- how many has Jimmy been to? I just wonder out of the 750. I'd like to visit-- they're just cool. Anyway-- we will have-- much more with Becky-- Jimmy, you got an answer?
吉米·哈斯拉姆只剩一家没去。
JIMMY HASLAMAll but one.
贝基·奎克乔，他说——
BECKY QUICKJoe, he said--
吉米·哈斯拉姆只剩一家。只剩一家没去。
JIMMY HASLAMAll but one. All but one.
贝基·奎克我刚才——我刚才随口说了一家，我说“新泽西有一家”，还大致描述了一下它的位置。他马上就说：“哦，对，在博登敦（Bordentown）。”他知道得一清二楚。
BECKY QUICKAnd when I n-- when I just named one-- I said, "There's one in New Jersey." I described kind of where it was. He said, "Oh yeah. In Bordentown." He knew exactly.
吉米·哈斯拉姆我们刚在加州的拉特里夫（音）新开了一个加油站。这家我还没去过。
JIMMY HASLAMWe just opened one in Latrif (PH), California. I hadn't been to it yet.
沃伦·巴菲特——正好在她家旁边——
WARREN BUFFETTright next to her house--
乔·科南你看，这比——
JOE KERNENSee, that's worse than--
沃伦·巴菲特——那地方开加油站位置确实绝佳。
WARREN BUFFETT--and it would make a terrific location.
乔·科南就冲着这也值了。我觉得——阿拉斯加会很酷，但人们并不是真的开车穿越阿拉斯加——你知道，那是个目的地——它不像是在去某地。但——但想想看。总之，我们还将——在本小时内从——贝基·奎克和沃伦·巴菲特那里带来更多消息。请继续关注。《财经论坛》马上回来。-0-
JOE KERNENWorth it right there. I think-- Alaska would be cool, but people aren't really driving across Al-- you know, you've got a destination-- it's not really like going somewhere. But-- but think about it. Anyway, we're gonna have much more-- from-- Becky Quick and Warren Buffett throughout the hour. Stay tuned. Squawk Box will be right back. -0-
贝基·奎克欢迎回到《财经论坛》，各位。今天我们在内布拉斯加州奥马哈直播。我们的特别嘉宾是沃伦·巴菲特，伯克希尔·哈撒韦的董事长兼首席执行官。今天早上我们讨论了许多不同的问题。沃伦，我想再次感谢你的时间。但今天你在这里的时候，恰好是富国银行首席执行官蒂姆·斯隆前往国会山的日子。这是一个漫长而混乱的过程，试图查明富国银行发生了什么。蒂姆·斯隆——只是最新一个因此被传唤到国会的人。但是——在他到达之前，已经有很多声音和愤怒。我想让你听一段——马萨诸塞州参议员沃伦的录音片段，她最近在《疯狂金钱》节目中与吉姆·克莱默交谈。让我们听听她说了什么。
BECKY QUICKWelcome back to Squawk Box, everybody. We are live in Omaha, Nebraska today. And our special guest is Warren Buffett. He's the chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. We've been talking about a lot of different issues this morning. Warren, I wanted to thank you for your time again. But while you're here today, it happens to be the same day that Wells Fargo CEO Tim Sloan is headed to Capitol Hill. This has been a long, messy process of trying to find out what happened at Wells Fargo. Tim Sloan-- is just the latest person who's being called before Congress with this. But already-- there's been a lot of sound and fury before he gets there. I want you to listen to a sound-- bite coming from-- Senator Warren, who was speaking with Jim Crame-- Cramer recently on Mad Money. Go ahead and let's listen to what she had to say.
伊丽莎白·沃伦参议员你知道，一年前我们开过一次听证会，当时约翰·斯坦普夫，那个在你的节目上第一个跳出来说“嘿，听着，我对富国银行出的问题负个人责任”的人。结果发现，他所谓的个人责任，就是炒掉几千个时薪 15 美元的员工。你知道——所以我们把约翰·斯坦普夫叫到面前，问了几个问题。斯坦普夫现在不是富国银行的 CEO 了。但实话实说，当时危机期间在富国银行管事的那帮人，现在还有不少在那儿干着呢。
SEN. ELIZABETH WARRENYou know, we had a hearing a year ago when John Stumpf, who had gone on your program, first one out of the barrel and said, "Hey, listen. I take personal responsibility for what's gone wrong at Wells Fargo." And then it turned out what personal responsibility meant was firing thousands of people who made 15 bucks an hour. You know-- so we got John Stumpf in front of us, asked a few questions. Stumpf is no longer the CEO of Wells Fargo. But let's face it. There are still a lot of folks running Wells Fargo who were there at the time of the crisis.
贝基·奎克刚才那是沃伦参议员最近对《疯狂金钱》的吉姆·克莱默说的话，讲他今天来国会能期待什么。你对沃伦参议员在这方面的言论怎么看？
BECKY QUICKAgain, that was Senator Warren speaking to Jim Cramer of Mad Money very recently talking about what he can expect coming in today. What do you think about what Senator Warren had to say on this front?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我没听完她说的所有话。但——但——她说的完全没错，你在所罗门兄弟也得一样。我当时有 8000 个员工，其中四五个惹出了麻烦。而——而——得做的事就是——把污点从几乎全部 8000 个员工身上洗掉，让责任落到该承担的人头上——那些干了那些事，或者知情后默许的人。我们当年在所罗门就是那么做的。我觉得富国银行也在往那个方向努力。而且——这事儿不一定一天或一周就能搞定。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I didn't hear all of what she had to say. But-- but-- she's absolutely right that you should-- s-- same situation at Salomon. I had 8,000 people and four or five of 'em that caused the problem. And the-- the-- the job is to remain as-- remove the stain from almost all of the 8,000 and get it where it properly belongs with the people that either performed the acts or condoned them after they were performed. And-- that's what we did at Salomon. And I think that's what they've been working at-- at-- at Wells. And-- you can't do that necessarily in a day or a week.
贝基·奎克当然。一天或一周搞不定，但已经过去很久了。你觉得到目前为止采取的措施——比如让约翰·斯坦普夫追回薪酬，让负责银行事务的那位女高管也追回薪酬，约翰·斯坦普夫离职，新人上位——你觉得这些够吗？
BECKY QUICKSure. You can't do it in a day or a week, but it's been quite a bit longer than that. Would you say that the actions that have taken place to this point, with John Stumpf getting clawbacks, with the-- the other woman who was in charge of the-- the bank getting clawbacks with some of those issues-- John Stumpf leaving, and new position-- new people being put in these positions, is-- is that sufficient in your view of what happened?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我实际上在四五年前伯克希尔的年报里提议过——大概是 2008 年后不久——问题是——银行被罚款，结果买单的是股东，而他们基本跟这事儿没关系。而且——而且我——我建议过——采取比沃伦参议员更极端的措施，比如追回所有董事五年的董事费。我觉得——你是真想——尽量让负责的人来掏钱。理想情况下，你希望无辜的人不用掏钱。但美国司法体系不是那样运作的。我认为——如果你有一家非常大的公司——伯克希尔也很大——你该有举报热线。我觉得 CEO 得特别留意举报热线收到的内容。大多数都是鸡毛蒜皮的东西。但——也有一些真材实料。匿名信也会寄来。而且——而且——你得——得跟进那些听起来真有分量的线索。而——而——显然，没有举报热线，富国银行不可能搞出那么大规模的问题。所以——有人搞砸了。你要做的就是找出谁搞砸了，然后——理想情况下，让惩罚力度大到能阻止其他人以后干类似的事。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I proposed actually in the annual report of Berkshire maybe four or five years ago, sometime after 2008-- that-- the problem is that-- that the bank gets fined, and the shareholders are the ones that pay for it, and they didn't have anything to do with it basically. And-- and I-- I suggested that-- that probably more extreme actions than Senator Warren in terms of clawing back all the directors' fees for I think five years. And-- I-- I-- I think that you really want-- you want-- as much as possible you want the people-- that were responsible to pay. And you-- and ideally you would have the people that were innocent not pay. But it doesn't work that way-- in-- in the American-- judicial system. I think that-- that if you have a company-- very large company, Berkshire is large-- you have a hotline. I think the CEO has to be very attentive to what comes in on the hotline. Now, m-- most of it Is silly stuff. But there's-- there's real stuff comes in, too. And you get anonymous letters. And-- and-- you've-- you've gotta-- you've gotta follow through on the ones that actually sound like they have real meaning. And-- and-- clearly you couldn't have activity as broad as it was at Wells-- without h-- without the hotline here. And-- and so somebody messed up. And the job is to find out who messed up and-- and-- ideally to make the penalties be such that it discourages other people in the future from-- from doing similar things.
贝基·奎克你知道，问题的一部分可能在于，关于富国银行的消息是慢慢泄露出来的——一开始我们听说的假账户，结果发现比我们意识到的更严重。后来发现还有车险——卖给不需要的人的汽车保险。还有寿险——卖给不需要的人。这种一点一点的泄露——慢慢蚕食银行的声誉。
BECKY QUICKYou know, part of the concern has probably been how the news has dribbled out over time when it comes to Wells Fargo that-- it wasn't just the fake accounts that we heard about at the beginning. It turned out that was more widespread than we'd realized. It turned out that there were auto insurance-- there was auto insurance that was being sold to people who didn't need it. There was life insurance being sold to people who didn't need it. That continual drib-drab-- just eats away at the reputation of the bank.
沃伦·巴菲特是啊。那当然。而且——我说过，当你遇到麻烦——你总会遇到麻烦的。我是说，如果你有非常庞大的队伍——你不可能让 28 万人工作而一点事儿都没有。绝大多数都是小事。但——如果出了系统性问题，那就是大麻烦。一旦你发现了，就得——纠正它，快点纠正，公开出来，赶快解决。而——纠正它很难。我是说，因为你翻起石头，有时会发现些东西。而且——而且——很少有大机构只出一样大问题，如果类似的事情在发生的话。所以——你得纠正对。而——有一件事你绝对不能干——就是搞错了。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah. Oh sure. And-- and I-- I say when you've got a problem-- and you're gonna have problems. I mean, if you had a very big-- you can't have 280,000 people working without something. And most things are minor. But-- if you get something systemic, you've got a big problem. And once you find out about it, you've gotta get-- get it right, get it fast, get it out, get it over. And-- and getting it right is hard. I mean, because-- you turn over rocks, and sometimes you find some things. And-- and-- and it's very seldom there is just one big thing going wrong in a big institution if something like that's going on. So you-- you've gotta get it right. And-- the one thing you don't want to do is – and be wrong about it.
贝基·奎克你刚才说的很多话，跟富国银行的实际情况不太一样。你是富国银行最大的股东。他们还值得你信任吗？你还支持这家银行吗？
BECKY QUICKA lot of the things that you just said are not exactly how things have gone at Wells Fargo. You're the largest shareholder in Wells Fargo. Do they still have your-- your faith? Are you still behind the bank?
沃伦·巴菲特是的。蒂姆·斯隆还值得我信任。而且——就像我说的，我在所罗门兄弟也遇到过。嗯，所罗门兄弟当初也值得我信任。这不代表我去了之后，所罗门兄弟的每个人都值得信任。而且我——还碰到了一些意外。我是说，我每天都担心有意外。但事实是——99% 的人都是挺好的人。他们就像在高盛或其他地方工作的人一样。而——而有人走偏了——完全失控了。而——而其他人没有举报。当你发现问题，你得立刻扑上去。我是说，那是——那是基本常识。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah. Tim Sloan has my faith. And-- like I say, it happened to me at Salomon. Well, Salomon had my faith. It -- doesn't mean every person at Salomon had my faith after I got there. And I got-- and I had some surprises. I mean, I was worried about surprises every day. But the truth was that—99% of the people were perfectly decent people. They were just like the people working at Goldman or some other place. And-- and somebody had gone off-- totally gone off the-- gone haywire. And-- and other people didn't report it as-- when you find a problem, you have to jump on it. I mean, that is-- that's just basic.
贝基·奎克你刚才说蒂姆·斯隆值得你信任。你在——他去国会作证之前跟他谈过吗？
BECKY QUICKAnd you just said that Tim Sloan has your confidence. Is-- have you-- have you spoken with him before he goes before Congress?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我——实际上——我上周在拉斯维加斯跟大约 400 个富国银行的人聊过。蒂姆是这事儿的负责人。那是他们全国的高层团队。五六年前，我在芝加哥也给富国银行做过同样的事。七八年前还给美国银行做过。我是说，他们时不时会请我过去，好让员工看看谁是大股东。所以——我——我聊过——我上周肯定聊了至少一个小时。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I-- I actually-- I was in Las Vegas last week talking to about 400 Wells people. And Tim was head of this. It was their top group from around the country. I did the same thing about five or six years ago for Wells in Chicago. I did it for B of A maybe seven or eight years ago. I mean, every now and then they-- they ask me to come around just so that people can see who owns a lotta shares. So I-- I-- I've-- I've talked about-- I must have talked for at least an hour-- just last week.
贝基·奎克你跟他聊过他在国会作证这件事吗？
BECKY QUICKAnd did you talk to him at all about this-- his testimony before Congress?
沃伦·巴菲特我——我是说，他知道我很多年前就所罗门兄弟的事儿在众议院和参议院作过证。我——我跟他说了一些我的经验。不过全都有录像可以看。总之——但——我——我——我给了他——我告诉他我会怎么做。
WARREN BUFFETTI g-- I-- I mean, he knows that I testified many years ago in connection with Salomon both to the House and the Senate. And I-- I told 'em something of my experience. But it's all on tape in-- in terms of being able to see it. Anyway-- but I-- I-- I gave him-- I-- I told him what I would do.
贝基·奎克如果——他值得你信任，那我们是不是可以认为你没有卖出任何富国银行的股票？
BECKY QUICKIf-- he has your confidence are we right to assume that you have not sold any shares of Wells Fargo?
沃伦·巴菲特仅卖出足够保持低于 10%，这是美联储的要求。而且——而且由于富国银行在回购自己的股票，我们当时已经很接近 10% 了——事实上，我们——我们一度超过了 10%，是因为他们回购了股票，而不是因为我们买了。所以我们会——我们会卖出足够的部分，保持在 9.8% 左右。但那是——那是——那是为了避免成为银行控股公司——
WARREN BUFFETTOnly enough to stay under 10%, which was something that the Fed requires. And-- and since Wells repurchases their shares and we were right up against 10%-- fact, we-- we went over because they repurchased shares, not because we bought. So we keep-- we will sell enough to stay at around 9.8. But that's-- that's-- that's to avoid becoming a bank-holding company--
贝基·奎克所以如果我们看到美国证交会的文件显示你在卖出，我们不该认为——
BECKY QUICKSo if we see-- --the S.E.C. filings that show you're selling, we should not assume that--
沃伦·巴菲特不。不。你会发现我们只是保持在 10% 以下一点点。除了那个目的，一股都没卖过。
WARREN BUFFETTNo. No. You will find we're just keeping a little below 10%. We've not sold a share except for that purpose.
贝基·奎克好的。你——也是美国银行的大股东。
BECKY QUICKOkay. You are -- a major shareholder in Bank of America, too.
沃伦·巴菲特没错。
WARREN BUFFETTThat's correct.
贝基·奎克你最喜欢的银行是哪家？
BECKY QUICKWhat's your favorite bank?
沃伦·巴菲特我最喜欢的银行是哪家？嗯，我不太——你最喜欢哪个孩子？不过——美国银行在布莱恩·莫伊尼汉领导下干得相当出色。布莱恩接手时一大堆问题。我是说，那些问题不是他搞出来的，但他面对一大堆麻烦。他翻了很多石头——人员变动大。花了很多钱。然后他一步一步地，把银行拉回来。员工从大约 28 万人减到 21 万人。年化运营费用从 700 亿降到 540 亿。我是说，他——他确实干得漂亮。而且——你知道，我们会——我们会持有美国银行的股票，牢牢地持有——很久很久很久。
WARREN BUFFETTWhat's my favorite bank? Well, I'm not so s-- who's your favorite child? But-- Bank of America has done a sensational job under Brian Moynihan. Brian had all kinds of problems when he came in. I mean, they were not of his own doing, but he had a ton of problems. And he had a lotta rocks-- turnover. And it cost a lotta money. And he just set out step by step to bring the bank back. And he's gone from 280 or so thousand people down to 210,000. He's gone from a run rate of expenses in the 70 billion down to 54 billion. I mean, he-- he has really done a job. And-- you know, we will be-- we'll be holders of B of A stuck for-- for a long, long, long time.
贝基·奎克好的。沃伦，我们马上简短休息一下。我交回给乔和梅丽莎。之后还有更多内容跟沃伦聊。
BECKY QUICKOkay. Warren, we're gonna take a quick break right now. I will send it back to Joe and Melissa. We have much more to come-- with Warren after this.
乔·科南好的，贝基。谢谢。我们进广告。然后——马上回来，继续跟沃伦聊。
JOE KERNENAll right, Beck. Thanks. We're gonna go to break. And then-- we'll be right back with more from Warren. -0-
贝基·奎克各位早上好。欢迎回到 CNBC 的《财经论谈》。今天我们有特别节目，在内布拉斯加州奥马哈现场直播，请到沃伦·巴菲特，伯克希尔·哈撒韦的董事长兼 CEO。我们刚才聊了很多话题，从市场到国会山的事儿。还有，沃伦，我们之前简短提过税，但没有深入聊你对目前这个税改法案的看法。这个话题你过去写过很多，也谈过很多。你刚才说这不是一个税改法案，而是减税法案。
BECKY QUICKGood morning everyone. Welcome back to Squawk Box here on CNBC. We have a special program where we're live in Omaha, Nebraska this morning with Warren Buffett, who's the chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. We've been talking about lots of issues today from the market to what's been happening on Capitol Hill. And, Warren, we touched briefly on taxes earlier, but we didn't dig deeply into what you think about what's happening with this tax bill right now. This is an area that you've-- written on, that you've spoken on pretty extensively in the past. You said earlier that this is not a tax reform bill. It's a tax cut.
沃伦·巴菲特减税。
WARREN BUFFETTA tax cut.
贝基·奎克你怎么看？
BECKY QUICKWhat do you think about it?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我——我不觉得自己需要减税。但是——举个例子，目前的提案废除了遗产税。这可不是“死亡税”。今年美国将有 260 万人去世。而其中只有 5000 份遗产需要缴税。所以，如果你每个月去参加一场葬礼，平均要等 40 年才会碰到一个需要缴遗产税的（听不清）。这就是个带有贬义的词。实际上，如果他们通过了正在讨论的那个法案——我可以把 750 亿美元留给一群子女、孙辈和曾孙辈。如果分给 35 个人——他们每人能拿到几十亿美元。他们可以把钱投出去，按 5% 的收益率计算，每年能赚 1 亿美元。我的意思是，这是在美国配置资源的好方法吗？因为这就是税法的本质——影响资源配置。所以，如果他们幸运地投对了胎，姓了巴菲特这个姓，他们就能坐在那里，给自己建造金字塔——连埃及法老都想不到的那种。他们可以——他们可以——他们可以做任何事。而——而资本主义的核心就是明智的资源配置。有人会说，“你不必担心这个，因为他们会把钱全挥霍掉。”但如果他们（笑）挥霍掉了，那意味着他们用一些重要资源做了些蠢事。那对资本主义没好处。我不觉得这对孩子们有好处。我肯定——我当然不认为这对社会有好处，尤其是在已经存在大量不平等的情况下。所以——我——我愿意——我认为那将是一个可怕的错误，比如说。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, I-- I don't think I need a tax cut. But-- for example, the current proposal eliminates the estate tax. And it's not a death tax. There are gonna be 2.6 million people dies this year in the United States. And there'll be 5,000 tax returns that people-- estates that pay tax. So if you start going to a funeral-- every month, it's gonna be 40 years on average before you go to one where there's any estate tax (UNINTEL). It's a very pejorative term. The truth is if they pass the bill that-- they're talking about-- I could leave $75 billion to a buncha children, and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. And if left it to 35 of 'em-- they'd each have a couple billion dollars. They could put it out at 5%, have 100 million. I mean, is that a great way to allocate resources in the United States? Because that's what you're doing whe-- for the tax code, is you're affecting the allocation of resources. So if they were lucky enough to come out of the right womb, have the right name, Buffett, they could sit there and build tombs for themselves like Egyptians-- pharaohs never dreamt of. They could-- they could-- they could do anything. And-- and capitalism was all about intelligent allocation of resources. Now, some people say, "Well, you don't have to worry about that because they'll blow it all." But if they (LAUGH) blow it all, that means that they-- you know, that they've done some done things with some important resources. And that's-- that's not good for capitalism. I don't think it's good for the children. I sure as-- I sure don't think it's good for society when there's a ton of un-- inequality-- to start with. And-- so I-- I would-- I think that's a terrible mistake, for example.
贝基·奎克不过——让我们来唱唱反调。
BECKY QUICKHowever-- let's play devil's advocate here.
沃伦·巴菲特当然。
WARREN BUFFETTSure.
贝基·奎克你有三个孩子，每人都在运营自己的基金会。你认为他们比联邦政府更擅长配置这笔钱吗？
BECKY QUICKYou have three children who have foundations that each of them are running. Do you think that they're a better allocator of that money than the federal government?
沃伦·巴菲特我——我同意。但我——我不认为把遗产这样安排给子女、孙辈——假设我死的时候他们才 20 岁。我不认为他们会是现在的样子。我直到他们 40 多岁、看到他们如何生活之后，才鼓励他们参与那个基金会项目。他们已经有机会长期生活，上公立学校，像奥马哈其他人一样生活。但我只是觉得——我认为我们不应该让 20 年后的奥运代表队由现在奥运代表队的长子组成。而且——
WARREN BUFFETTI-- I do. But I-- I-- I don't think that setting it up so children, grandchildren-- let's say I died when they were 20. I don't think they'd be the same individuals that they are. I didn't-- encourage that foundation program until they were in their 40's and-- and I'd seen what they'd done with their lives. And they-- and they'd had a chance to live for a long time, going to public schools, living just like other people in Omaha live. But I-- I just think that-- I don't think we should have our Olympic team 20 years from now be the eldest sons of the Olympic team currently. And—
贝基·奎克所以是王朝式的——
BECKY QUICKSo it's the dynastic—
沃伦·巴菲特王朝式的——
WARREN BUFFETTThe dynastic--
贝基·奎克——金钱的影响。
BECKY QUICK--impact of money.
沃伦·巴菲特我不认为——不认为一个拥有巨额财富的王朝体系——请记住，现在富人比 25 年前富有得多。目前美国 400 位富豪拥有 2.4 万亿美元，而此前是 900 亿美元。财富增长了 25 倍。所以——你周围撒满了这些子女和孙辈——仅靠这 400 位富豪，就能有 2.4 万亿美元传承给他们。在这个 GDP 约 20 万亿（还没到 20 万亿）美元的国家里，这是一大笔资源。我认为——这完全违背了构建这个国家的东西，以及这个国家所代表的意义。如果那 5000 人连 200 亿或 250 亿美元都舍不得花，他们还有很多剩的。相信我。顺便说一句，这对慈善事业也不利。我的意思是——一定数量的人会选择给自己的孩子留下数十亿、数十亿美元的财富，而不是把钱捐给慈善。但我不认为那是主要原因。但它确实会成为一个副产品。
WARREN BUFFETTI don't think-- I don't think-- a dynastic system with huge sums of wealth-- and bear in mind the wealthy are so much wealthier now than they were 25 years ago. We're talking about the 400 now having 2.4 trillion against 90 billion. 25 times as much money. So you have-- sprinkled around you have these children and grandchildren that-- that just with those 400 could have two-- 2.4 trillion passed down to them. That's a lot of resources in this country with a $20 billion G-- not even quite a 20 bill-- trillion-dollar GDP. I think-- I-- I-- I think it goes totally against what's built this country, what this country stands for. And if those 5,000 people can't stand to spend the 20 or 25 billion, they've got lots left over. Believe me. And incidentally it would be bad for philanthropy. I mean-- people would-- a certain number of people would elect to set their kids up with b-- you know, billions and billions of dollars rather than-- than have it go to philanthropy. But I don't think that's the primary reason. But I do think that'd be a byproduct.
贝基·奎克遗产税只是其中一部分。我们先谈谈企业税。把企业税从 35% 降到 20%。这——
BECKY QUICKThe estate tax is just one part of this. Let-- let's talk about the corporate tax first of all. Cut corporate taxes from 35% to 20%. What--
沃伦·巴菲特好吧，如果我没把所有的朋友都得罪光——那我就把话说完。我们有很多企业——大约 60 到 70 家。我不认为有任何一家因为企业税率而在世界上缺乏竞争力。我的意思是——在现行税制下，美国企业有形净资产收益率之高，在美国过去 100 年的历史中都非同寻常。我说的是有形净资产。那是实际投资的资金。你可以——美国市值最大的五家公司，几乎占市场总市值的 10%，它们不需要资本。这不像过去，大型钢铁公司、汽车公司和炼油厂需要大量资本。但是——我们并不——我们在有形资产回报率方面，是全球收入最高的之一。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, if I haven't lost all my friends now-- I'll finish it off. We have a lot of businesses-- 60 or 70. I don't think any of 'em are non-competitive-- in the world because of the corporate tax rate. I mean-- American business earns a return on tangible equity under the present tax system that is extraordinary compared to history the last 100 years in America. I'm talking about tangible equity. But that's the money actually invest. You could-- and the five largest companies in the United States by market value, that's almost 10% of the value of the market, they don't need capital. And it's not like the old days where big steel companies, and auto companies, and oil refineries where huge amounts of capital were needed. But-- we do not-- we do-- we-- we are among the high earners of the world in terms of return on tangible assets.
贝基·奎克但是——单看税法，35% 是我们应该支付的税率——企业应该支付的税率。大多数公司并没有支付。
BECKY QUICKBut-- just looking at the tax code, 35% is what we're supposed to be paying-- what corporations are supposed to be paying. Most of 'em don't.
沃伦·巴菲特很多公司没有支付。
WARREN BUFFETTA lot of 'em don't.
贝基·奎克很多公司没有支付。而那些支付了的企业反而受到惩罚，因为它们没有利用或无法利用系统中众多漏洞。难道不能这样主张：“让我们简化它。创造一个公平的竞争环境，确保每个人都支付相同的税率，让你没法通过钻空子来降低税率”吗？
BECKY QUICKA lot of 'em don't. And the ones that do are penalized because they're not taking advantage or they're not able to take advantage of the massive number of loopholes that have been built into the system. Isn't there an argument for saying, "Let's simplify this. Let's level the playing field, make sure everybody's paying the same amount, that you can't snake way your way around into a lower rate"?
沃伦·巴菲特对。
WARREN BUFFETTRight.
贝基·奎克“然后让我们制定一套税法，顺便说一句，它不会激励公司将现金留在海外。把资金带回来，有可能让它在这里——就在美国——发挥作用。”
BECKY QUICK"And let's set up a tax code that, by the way, doesn't incentivize companies to keep cash overseas. Bring it back here and potentially put it to work-- right here in America."
沃伦·巴菲特没错。但如果你——如果你——如果你让公司非常容易就能从低税率地区把钱抽回来——那反而会鼓励它们往那些地方投更多钱。你知道，因为美国这边的税率还是更高。这个——美国——听着——站在个人角度，为了伯克希尔·哈撒韦的股东，我希望他们现在就改。我是说，我愿意看到这种情况，因为从净收益角度看，这对伯克希尔的数百万股东有好处。但我确实觉得有些论点——在提出这些论点后，有些人可能会发现自己的鼻子变长了一点。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah. But if you-- if you-- if you make it very easy to take back money from jurisdictions in which you pay very low rates-- that's going to encourage even more investment over there. You know, 'cause you'd still have a higher rate in the United States. It's-- American-- listen-- as-- on a personal basis and for Berkshire Hathaway shareholders I hope they do change it now. I mean, I-- I would like it in the sense that it would be good for a million shareholders of Berkshire in terms of their net returns. But I do think some of the arguments-- I think people may find their nose growing a little bit after they make 'em.
贝基·奎克梅丽莎也有一个问题。梅丽莎？
BECKY QUICKMelissa has a question, too. Melissa?
梅丽莎·李是的，沃伦，我——我完全理解你的论点，即很多公司实际上并没有支付现行税率。但比如富国银行，它支付的税率会高于提议的 20% 企业税率，对吧？他们第二季度的实际税率大约是 27% 左右。所以它会受益。那么，从广义上讲，你认为将税率降至 20% 对整个市场意味着什么？这意味着——你知道，股票会涨 5% 吗？我的意思是——你的估计是什么？
MELISSA LEEYeah, Warren, I-- I completely get your argument that a lot of companies don't actually pay-- the going tax rate. But Wells Fargo, for instance, pays a tax that would be higher than the proposed corporate tax rate of 20%, right? Their effective tax rate as of the second quarter was 27% or so. So it would benefit. So broadly speaking, what do you think that tax rate to 20% would mean for the broader market? Would that mean-- you know, a 5% increase in stocks? I mean-- what's your estimate?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯——减税意味着利润增加。可能不会完全等于减税金额。但这会——会增加收益。这是毫无疑问的。所以问题是，这是否已经反映在预期中。我怀疑是否——已经完全反映在预期中。所以，不，税率越低，实际上——如果企业税率为负，那当然更棒。但——关于银行，你说得没错，顺便提一句。银行往往——支付相当高的税率——除非它们——你知道，持有一些免税债券。但那不是大项。有些银行会做低收入住房税收抵免之类的事。但银行的税率相当高——在各行业中名列前茅。伯克希尔——我们大部分收入按 35% 的税率征税，但我们确实有——大量未实现的证券增值。接近 1000 亿美元尚未实现。但是——如果我们今天卖出我们持有的所有股票，我们将——我们将为大约 800 亿或 900 亿美元支付 35% 的税。但是——所以——但我可以这样说。银行做得还不错。它们不像八九年前那么好。这主要是因为资本要求。资本要求会扼杀银行和净资产收益率。它们已经大大降低了 10 或 12 年前可达到的水平。
WARREN BUFFETTWell-- a decrease in taxes would mean an increase in profits. It might-- it might not be totally the amount of the decrease in taxes. But it would-- it would increase earnings. There's no question about it. So the question is whether that's already built into the expectations. I doubt if it-- it fully is built into expectations. So, no, the lower the taxes go, actually-- if you had a negative tax rate for corporations, it'd really be great. But-- you're right about banks incidentally. Banks tend to pay-- a pretty full rate-- unless they-- they-- you know, they own some tax-exempt bonds. But that's not a big item. Some of 'em do some low-income housing tax credits and that sort of thing. But the tax rate on banks is right up there-- among the top of-- of various industries. Berkshire-- most of our income is taxed at 35%, but we do have-- a lot of unrealized appreciation in securities. Close to 100 billion that hasn't been realized yet. But-- if we were to sell all of the stocks we own today, we would-- we would pay 35% on about 80 or $90 billion. But-- so it-- it-- but I can say this. The banks are doing okay. They're not doing as well as they were-- eight or 10 years ago. That's primarily because of capital requirements. Capital requirements can kill the return on equity-- and banks. And they've reduced it significantly from what was available-- 10 or 12 years ago.
乔·科南所以——所以，沃——
JOE KERNENSo-- so, War--
贝基·奎克乔，你有问题吗？
BECKY QUICKJoe, you have a question?
乔·科南不，我只是想确切弄明白你到底在说什么，沃伦。所以——如果资金回流，那会是好事。但你不想让资金——你不想诱导他们将来再把钱送到那边去。所以，如果你真的降到 20%，你真的把资金带回来，因为税率是 20%，不再有动机把钱送出去，你为什么不能直截了当地说这是好事呢？你为什么非得说，“嗯，人们在夸大其词，”以及“他们的鼻子变——”为什么——为什么——为什么你不能直接说，“如果我们这样做，20% 的税率在这里更好，钱不会再流向那里。所以资金可能留在这里，工作机会也可能留在这里”？为什么这不是好事？如果他们能做到这一点，你为什么不为它背书？
JOE KERNENNo, I'm just trying to just get exactly what-- what you're saying, Warren. So-- if the money came back, it would be a good thing. But you don't want it to go-- you don't want to induce them to send it over there in the future. So if you really did go to 20, and you really did bring it back, and because you're at 20 and there's no longer an inducement to go over there, why can't you just say outright that's a good thing? Why do you have to say, "Well, people are hyping it," and, "Their noses are grow--" why-- why-- why can't you just say, "If we did it, 20% would be better here, and it wouldn't go over there anymore. So the money might stay here and the jobs might stay here"? Why isn't that a good thing? Why don't you give-- give us an endorsement of that if they could do it.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，假设——让我们——假设某个国家的税率是 2%，你向他们征收 10%——10%——10% 的税才让资金回流，而你的国内税率是 25% 或类似水平——
WARREN BUFFETTWell, let's just say-- let-- let's just say the-- the-- the rate in some country was 2% and you charge people 10 perc-- 10-- 10% for bringing it back, and you had a domestic rate that was 25 or something like that--
乔·科南嗯，那不是 2%——
JOE KERNENWell, it's not 2%--
沃伦·巴菲特——那仍然——那仍然划算——
WARREN BUFFETT--it still-- it would still pay--
乔·科南那不是 2%。最低的可能是爱尔兰的 12%。你认为如果我们这样做，会出现逐底竞争吗？是那个——那个——
JOE KERNENIt's not 2%. It's-- it's-- the lowest is 12 probably in Ireland. You think there'll be a race to the bottom if we do this? Is that-- is that--
沃伦·巴菲特呃，还有比 12% 更低的税率。你说爱尔兰没错，但还有很多远低于 12% 的税率。我——我——
WARREN BUFFETTOh, there's-- there's rates lower than 12. You're right about Ireland, but there's-- there's rates a lot lower than 12. And I-- I--
乔·科南好吧，那么——那么你的论点——就是这会是一场逐底竞争。你认为现在这会是一场逐底竞争。
JOE KERNENOkay, so then-- then your argument--is then it's a race to the bottom. You think it'd be a race to the bottom then at this point.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，确实有这种成分。而且——还有一件事挺有意思的，乔。资金正在——某种程度上——回流。当伯克希尔·哈撒韦发行一笔债券时，你猜怎么着？那些现金充裕的美国公司的海外子公司会买下那些债券。所以钱回到了伯克希尔·哈撒韦。我们向那个现金充裕国家的海外子公司支付利息。但那笔钱最终流向了美国。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, there's some of that. And-- and one thing in-- interestingly enough, Joe. The money is coming back-- to some extent. When Berkshire Hathaway sells a bond issue, guess what? The-- the foreign subsidiaries of-- of certain very cash-rich American companies buy those bonds. So the money comes back to Berkshire Hathaway. We pay interest to the foreign-- subsidiary of the cash-rich country over there. But that money ends up in the-- United States.
乔·科南没错。但——
JOE KERNENRight. But there--
沃伦·巴菲特这么想。
WARREN BUFFETTThink of it this way.
乔·科南那边有数万亿美元——
JOE KERNENThere's trillions over there--
沃伦·巴菲特这么——这么——
WARREN BUFFETTThink-- think--
乔·科南——对吧？
JOE KERNEN--though, right?
沃伦·巴菲特想想看有——
WARREN BUFFETTThink of having--
乔·科南我宁愿有那数万——难道不是有——
JOE KERNENI'd rather have the tri-- isn't there--
沃伦·巴菲特是啊，但是——
WARREN BUFFETTYeah, but--
乔·科南——2 万亿还是 3 万亿？不能——我——我宁愿那些钱回到这里。搞点基础设施。
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JOE KERNEN--2 or 3 trillion? Can't-- I'd-- I'd much rather have that back here. Do some infrastructure.
沃伦·巴菲特假设你有——假设你有两家公司，A 公司和 B 公司，它们都有——一万亿美元在那边。然后 A 公司从 B 公司借了一万亿，B 公司从 A 公司借了一万亿。这样一来，两万亿都在这里了——它——它可以用于投资。
WARREN BUFFETTLet's say you have-- let's say you have two companies, company A and company B, and they both have-- a trillion dollars over there. And company A borrows a trillion from company B, and company B borrows a trillion from company A. Now you've got all 2 trillion back here, and it-- it's available for investment.
乔·科南所以你有了——你太聪明了。你知道怎么在事情发生之前就把它们都做好。这就是为什么你喜欢那种第二生命保险。你不在乎遗产税，是因为你有更多办法绕开它——你——你太聪明了。你太聪明了——如果我们让——如果每个人都让你管他们的钱，我们就不需要任何——我们就不需要任何税改。
JOE KERNENSo you've got-- you're so smart. You know how to do all these things before they actually get done. That's why you love that second-to-die insurance. You don't care about estate tax, is because you've got more things going on to get around it than-- you-- you're just too smart. You're too smart-- if we had-- if everybody had you running their money, we wouldn't need any-- we wouldn't need any tax reforms.
沃伦·巴菲特我——我可以告诉你不用交遗产税的确切秘诀。全都捐了就行。
WARREN BUFFETTI-- I can tell you exactly the secret of not having any estate tax. Just give it all away.
乔·科南对。对。
JOE KERNENRight. Right.
沃伦·巴菲特这样——这样就能彻底免除遗产税。
WARREN BUFFETTIt'll-- it'll eliminate all estate tax.
乔·科南一点没错。确实如此。
JOE KERNENExactly. That's true.
梅丽莎·李沃伦，我想追问一句来强调你刚才说的——更低的公司税率会提高利润。这是否意味着你也认为更低的公司税率会推高市场？
MELISSA LEESo Warren. Just one-- one follow-up just to underscore a point you said that a lower corporate tax rate will increase profits. Does that mean that you also believe that a lower corporate tax rate will cause the markets to go higher?
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，任何提高利润的因素通常都会推高股价。我是说，可能同时有 10 个其他变量在发生作用，你知道——不过——不过作为方程中的一个单一变量——利润，而利润长期决定股价——不，这——这对美国企业是利好。而且，你知道，就像我说的，我有 100 万——我在伯克希尔·哈撒韦有 100 万股东。而且——他们都乐于看到公司所得税被削减。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, anything that increases profits tends to push stocks. I mean, there can be 10 other variables happening, you know, for other-- but-- but as a single variable in the, in the equation-- for profits, and profits determine stock prices over time-- no, it's-- it is a plus for American business. And, you know, like I say, I've got a million-- I got a million shareholders at Berkshire Hathaway. And-- and they would all love to see a corporate tax cut.
乔·科南而且你——你还——
JOE KERNENAnd you-- you-- you also--
沃伦·巴菲特所以代表他们——
WARREN BUFFETTSo on behalf of them--
乔·科南——说过，“如果我的——”你还说过，“如果我的孩子成长得更快、成熟得更快，那我就会希望他们——保留它，而不是交给政府。”我的意思是，你的——你的某些论点里有很多这种限定条件，沃伦。所以如果——如果你能把它留在私人——如果你能把它留在私人部门，但你没有那些疯狂的 20 多岁的人把它挥霍在天知道什么上——那么你就会——所以你明白我的意思吗？就像，而且你——也许应该有——
JOE KERNEN--said, "If my--" you also said, "If my kids had grown up quicker and become mature quicker, then-- then I would want 'em to-- to keep it and not give it to the government." I mean, there's all these qualifiers in-- in some of your arguments, Warren. So if-- if-- if you could keep it in the pri-if you could keep it in the private sector but you didn't have crazy 20-year-olds blowin' it on God knows what, then-- then you would-- so you see what I'm saying? Like, and you-- maybe there should be--
沃伦·巴菲特我说过——
WARREN BUFFETTI said--
乔·科南——也许应该对你征财富税。也许我们应该拿走你现在拥有的 20%，因为你现在的钱实在太多了。你根本用不完。所以也许我们应该就——你知道——现在就开始重新分配它。你不需要那么多。
JOE KERNEN--maybe we should have a wealth tax on you. Maybe we shoulda taken 20% of what you have right now because you've got too much right now. You can't possibly use it. So maybe we should just take-- you know, just start reallocating it now. You don't need that much.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯，我们——我们正——我们正——我——我——我和你想法一样，乔。
WARREN BUFFETTWell, we're-- we're d-- we're do-- I-- I-- I'm with you, Joe.
乔·科南好吧。哦，不是财富税。那倒没事了。
JOE KERNENOkay. Oh, not a wealth tax. Actually, I'll be safe.
沃伦·巴菲特我——我得说。你要是能告诉我怎么让孩子 20 岁就成熟，把秘诀发给我——发给我。
WARREN BUFFETTI-- I gotta tell you. If you can tell me how to have your kids mature at age 20, send me-- send me the secret.
乔·科南那 60 岁成熟怎么样？我——你知道，我可没——
JOE KERNENHow about maturing at age 60? I'm-- you know, I don't--
沃伦·巴菲特我也没成熟。
WARREN BUFFETTNeither have I.
乔·科南嗯，是啊，这没法——
JOE KERNENWell, yeah, there's no--
沃伦·巴菲特真成熟了也就没意思了。
WARREN BUFFETTIt's no fun the other way.
乔·科南这事儿谁也保证不了。
JOE KERNENThere are no guarantees.
沃伦·巴菲特没什么比一个不成熟的亿万富翁更不靠谱的了。我是说，年纪一大把的。
WARREN BUFFETTThere's nothing like an immature billionaire. I mean an old one.
乔·科南没错。
JOE KERNENRight.
贝基·奎克嘿，沃伦。咱们——
BECKY QUICKHey Warren. Let--
乔·科南想干什么就干什么——想干——
JOE KERNENGet to do whatever-- get to do--
贝基·奎克咱们——
BECKY QUICKLet's--
乔·科南——随心所欲，就像因为你喜欢他们的卡车休息站，就买下 Flying J 一样。
JOE KERNEN--whatever you want like buying Flying J because you like their truck stops.
沃伦·巴菲特我们就在你家隔壁开一个，乔。
WARREN BUFFETTWe'll put one right next to your house, Joe.
乔·科南我太喜欢那些地方了。
JOE KERNENLove those places.
沃伦·巴菲特那确实方便多了。我们会给——
WARREN BUFFETTThat will really make it convenient. We'll give--
乔·科南我喜欢那玩意儿。我可以在里面洗澡。
JOE KERNENI love them. I can shower there.
沃伦·巴菲特我们会给——对，我们会给“便利店”这个词赋予全新的含义。
WARREN BUFFETTWe'll give new meaning-- yeah, we'll give new meaning to the term convenience store.
贝基·奎克嘿，沃伦。我们——我们再聊聊市场吧。因为你有一个持续的赌约，就快到期了。已经到最后阶段了，赌约的最后一年，看哪个表现更好：是标普 500 指数在 10 年里的表现，还是跟你打赌的那个人——他赌了 100 万美元，去选五个对冲基金——
BECKY QUICKHey Warren. Let-- let's talk about the markets again. Because you have a long-running bet that's almost up. It's in the final stages, the last year of the bet about what does better: the S&P 500 index over 10 years or someone who you made a bet with for a million dollars who got to go pick five hedge funds--
沃伦·巴菲特母基金。母基金。
WARREN BUFFETTFund of funds. Fund of funds.
贝基·奎克他——他基于五只对冲基金构建了一只母基金。而——你俩之间，在这九年半的赌约里，标普 500 指数一直是遥遥领先的赢家。
BECKY QUICKHe-- he created a fund of funds based on five hedge funds. And-- between the two of you, the S&P 500 index has been the massive outperformer over the nine and a half years of the bet.
沃伦·巴菲特是的。是的，它——它——它绝对会把每一只母基金都杀得片甲不留。而且别忘了，每一只母基金当年都有极强的经济动力，去挑选 10 年前它们能找到的最好的基金。我的意思是，这对他们来说可是实实在在的钱。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah. Yeah, it'll-- it'll-- it'll absolutely kill every one of the fund of funds. And bear in mind each one of the fund of funds had a strong financial incentive to pick the best funds they could find 10 years ago. I mean, it meant real money to 'em.
贝基·奎克对。五——五只母基金。
BECKY QUICKRight. Five – fund of funds.
沃伦·巴菲特是啊。所以这——这——这是一场压倒性的胜利。而——被动投资——你知道，我——我已经写过了。整体来看，被动投资会因为费用而跑赢主动——主动投资。
WARREN BUFFETTYeah. So it-- it-- it was overwhelming. And-- passive investment-- you know, I've-- I've written about it. Passive investment in aggregate's gonna be beat active-- active investment because of fees.
贝基·奎克你——你做这件事，是因为——你想让人们知道，他们不需要总是试图战胜市场，他们可以老老实实做长期投资者，而且那也是一种赚钱之道。
BECKY QUICKYou-- you did this as a result-- because you wanted to show people that they didn't need to be trying to beat the market all the time, that they could just be investors over the long haul and that would be a way to make money.
沃伦·巴菲特而且——而且他们不需要每年付给别人 2% 或 3% 的费用——去获取那些收益。平均水平的收益会非常好。而且它们一直很好——在我这一辈子都很好。在这 10 年里也很好。你做被动投资，结果完全没问题。
WARREN BUFFETTAnd-- and that they didn't have to pay 2 or 3% a year to somebody-- to get those. And average results were going to be very good. And they were good-- they've been good all my life. And in these 10 years they've been good. You've done perfectly okay with passive investment.
贝基·奎克实际上，你做被动投资，结果棒极了，尤其最近七八年。现在外面有人说，“哦，他只是运气好。他选对了这 10 年。他正好是在量化宽松开始之前做的这件事。”有这么个人，摩根溪的马克·尤思科（Mark Yusko），他一直说他想要这份 10 年赌约，而且觉得自己能在这期间跑赢。对这种事，你——你怎么看。
BECKY QUICKActually, you've done great with passive ingr-- investment, especially the last seven or eight years. There are people out there who are saying, "Oh, he just got lucky. He picked the right 10 years. He did it right before quantitative easing came around." There's a guy, Mark Yusko at Morgan Creek, who's been saying he wants the 10-years bet and thinks he can outperform in that time. What do-- what do you say to something like that.
沃伦·巴菲特嗯——只要他们愿意押上自己净资产的很大一部分。我经常收到来信，有人说，“我想试试。我出 100 美元”——你知道，诸如此类的话。他们会名声大噪。所以他们——他们很喜欢这种——我给他们带来大量曝光的主意。如果有人愿意押上自己净资产的很大一部分——
WARREN BUFFETTWell--if they'll put up a substantial part of m-- their net worth. I get letters all the time from people who say, "I'd like to do it. I'll put up $100"-- you know, or something. They'll become famous. So they-- they'd love the idea of-- of me giving them a lot of publicity. If anybody wants to put up a significant percentage of their net worth--
贝基·奎克100 万美元？这个标准现在还作数吗？
BECKY QUICKA million dollars? Does that cut it still?
沃伦·巴菲特这——这得看他们的净资产。但如果他们——如果他们想押上自己净资产的很大一部分，他们家庭净资产的很大一部分，并且想赌一个 10 年——主动对被动——你知道，那可能真得由我的遗产来跟他们结算了。我是说，87 岁了，任何牵涉到 10 年的事都有点——是希望战胜了统计规律。但——不管怎样——那些给我写信的人——说白了，他们心里真正的盘算是想让自己的名字上报纸。
WARREN BUFFETTIt-- it just depends on their net worth. But if they-- if they want to put up a significant percentage of their net worth, their family's net worth, and they want to make a bet on 10 years on-- on active versus passive-- you know, maybe my estate has to be the one to settle with 'em. I mean, at 87 anything involving 10 years is kind of-- a triumph of hope over statistics. But the-- nevertheless-- the ones that have written me-- they really want to get their name in the paper, you know, basically.
贝基·奎克但你会——你会接受任何押上自己净资产很大一部分的人？你会接这个赌注吗？
BECKY QUICKBut you'll-- you'll take anybody who puts up a substantial portion of their net worth? You'll take that bet?
沃伦·巴菲特他们可以——他们可以选一组。必须选一组——对吧？因为我选的是标普 500 指数里的 500 只股票。而且——他们可以自己选起始日期。起始日期一点都不重要。事实是，从这十年的总回报来看，市场表现得相当正常。这根本不是什么特别的时期。没有任何不寻常之处。真正不寻常的是费用太高了。那笔费用基本上把他吃了个精光。这些基金的基金经理这期间赚得盆满钵满。底层基金的管理人也赚得很好。而他们的投资者，跟自己本可以轻松做到的事比起来，简直惨不忍睹。
WARREN BUFFETTThey can-- they can pick a group. Gotta pick a group-- you know? 'Cause I'm picking a group of 500 in the S&P. And-- they can pick the date of the start. The date of the start has nothing to do with it. And-- and the truth is the market behaves fairly typically in terms of-- of aggregate return for the decade. This is not some extraordinary period in the least. There's nothing unusual about this. The thing that was unusual was the size of the fees. And that's ate him alive basically. The managers of these funds did very well during this period. And the managers of the underlying funds did very well. And their investors got killed compared to something they could have done.
贝基·奎克有一件事——这周传得沸沸扬扬——说奥普拉也许在考虑竞选总统。我知道你认识奥普拉。你跟她聊过这事吗？
BECKY QUICKYou know, one quick story-- that's picked up around this week-- that Oprah may be considering a run for the presidency. I know you know Oprah. Have you talked to her about this?
沃伦·巴菲特没有，我——我没聊过。我已经有好一阵子没和奥普拉通过话了。
WARREN BUFFETTNo, I-- I haven't. I haven't talked to Oprah for quite a while.
贝基·奎克有没有民主党人找过你，为 2020 年竞选筹款？
BECKY QUICKHave you had any Democrats who have come to you who are looking to fundraise to run in 2020?
沃伦·巴菲特没有——没人来找我——来筹款。而且我在这事上也不是个好对象。是啊，你知道——不行——不行——我门口像是挂着“谢绝推销”的牌子似的。没有。2020 年的选前阶段会非常有意思。我是说，会有很多人琢磨要不要加入进来。因为当你看到一个人完全从政界之外被选上总统，这就会——让很多人的心思开始活络起来。
WARREN BUFFETTNot-- nobody's come to me-- to-- to fundraise. I'm not a great prospect on that either. Yeah, you know-- no-- no-- no solicitors allowed, you know, or something on the-- on the-- the door. No. It's gonna be a very interesting run-up to 2020. I mean, there are gonna be a lotta people that think about getting into this race. Because when you have somebody come from totally outside politics to get elected president, it starts the-- the wheels turning with a lot of people.
贝基·奎克的确如此。沃伦，非常谢谢你今天抽出时间来。真是一大乐事。
BECKY QUICKIt does. Warren, I want to thank you so much for your time today. It's really been a pleasure.
沃伦·巴菲特谢谢邀请。
WARREN BUFFETTThanks for having me.
贝基·奎克好了，乔和梅丽莎，我们把画面交还给你们。
BECKY QUICKAnd-- Joe and Melissa, we'll send it back to you.
乔·科南贝基，尤……尤斯科就是我三四个月前找过麻烦的那个家伙。还记得吗？他当时就——一副“哦糟了”的样子，结果那之后股市又涨了。他那时候是——他并不看多——或者说至少在那之前他极其谨慎。我是——我能参与这个跟尤斯科的对赌吗？我想——我愿意……
JOE KERNENBecky, Yus-- Yusko was that guy that I gave a hard time to, like, three or four months ago. Remember? He was-- he was like, "Oh no." And it's gone up since then. And he was l-- he was not long-- or-- or at least he was very cautious prior to that. I'm t-- is-- can I get in on this bet on-- on-- against Yusko? I'll-- I'll take--
贝基·奎克你想站在沃伦这边？
BECKY QUICKYou want on Warren's side?
乔·科南对。我想站他这边。好了，谢谢你——贝基。谢谢你，沃伦。各位请记得明天继续收看我们。梅丽莎，谢谢你。祝你早日康复。接下来是《街头财经》（Squawk on the Street）。关于 CNBC：CNBC 在美国、亚太、欧洲、中东和非洲，以及 CNBC 国际频道，是全球公认的商业新闻领导者，向全球超过 4.09 亿户家庭提供实时金融市场报道和商业信息，其中包括美国和加拿大的 9100 多万户家庭。CNBC 还向中国 4 亿户家庭提供每日商业快讯。该频道在北美每天播出 15 小时直播商业节目（美国东部时间工作日上午 4:00 至晚上 7:00），节目制作于 CNBC 位于新泽西州恩格尔伍德克利夫斯的全球总部，并涵盖 CNBC 遍布全球的各新闻分社的报道。CNBC 晚间时段则播出全新真人秀节目、CNBC 极受欢迎的独家原创系列节目，以及多部独具特色的自制纪录片。CNBC 还拥有庞大的数字产品矩阵，通过多种平台提供实时金融市场新闻和信息，包括：CNBC.com；CNBC PRO，一项高级集成的桌面与移动端服务，供用户实时观看 CNBC 节目、独家视频内容并获取全球市场数据和分析；一系列 CNBC 移动产品，包括适用于 iOS、安卓和 Windows 设备的 CNBC 应用程序；以及面向 Apple Watch 和 Apple TV 的 CNBC 应用等其他产品。媒体界人士可通过 NBCUniversal 媒体乡村网站 http://www.nbcumv.com/programming/cnbc 获取关于 CNBC 及其节目的更多信息。欲了解关于 NBCUniversal 的更多信息，请访问 http://www.NBCUniversal.com。有保密新闻线索？我们渴望听取您的意见。请注册免费简讯，将更多 CNBC 资讯直接发送至您的邮箱。将此内容发送至您的邮箱，并获取关于我们产品和服务的更多信息。© 2026 Versant Media, LLC. 保留所有权利。Versant Media 旗下公司。数据为实时快照 *数据延迟至少 15 分钟。
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JOE KERNENYeah. I want in on his side. Anyway, thanks-- Becky. Thanks, Warren. Anyway, make sure you join us tomorrow. Melissa, thank you. Hope you feel better. Squawk-- Squawk on the Street is next. About CNBC: With CNBC in the U.S., CNBC in Asia Pacific, CNBC in Europe, Middle East and Africa, and CNBC World, CNBC is the recognized world leader in business news and provides real-time financial market coverage and business information to more than 409 million homes worldwide, including more than 91 million households in the United States and Canada. CNBC also provides daily business updates to 400 million households across China. The network's 15 live hours a day of business programming in North America (weekdays from 4:00 a.m. - 7:00 p.m. ET) is produced at CNBC's global headquarters in Englewood Cliffs, N.J., and includes reports from CNBC News bureaus worldwide. CNBC at night features a mix of new reality programming, CNBC's highly successful series produced exclusively for CNBC and a number of distinctive in-house documentaries. CNBC also has a vast portfolio of digital products which deliver real-time financial market news and information across a variety of platforms including: CNBC.com; CNBC PRO, the premium, integrated desktop/mobile service that provides live access to CNBC programming, exclusive video content and global market data and analysis; a suite of CNBC mobile products including the CNBC Apps for iOS, Android and Windows devices; and additional products such as the CNBC App for the Apple Watch and Apple TV. Members of the media can receive more information about CNBC and its programming on the NBCUniversal Media Village Web site at http://www.nbcumv.com/programming/cnbc. For more information about NBCUniversal, please visit http://www.NBCUniversal.com. Got a confidential news tip? We want to hear from you. Sign up for free newsletters and get more CNBC delivered to your inbox Get this delivered to your inbox, and more info about our products and services. © 2026 Versant Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved. A Versant Media Company. Data is a real-time snapshot *Data is delayed at least 15 minutes.
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